Battleground: Ballot Box - Lawmakers Huddle: The Future at Risk: Grant Cuts in Georgia

 

Donna Lowry: Cuts in federal grants have left some Georgia agencies struggling to maintain critical programs in areas such as health, employment, and public safety.

 

In this week's Lawmakers Huddle, I discuss the issues with two Democratic state legislators who are working to highlight the human impact of these losses on the state's most vulnerable communities.

 

Joining me are Representative Marvin Lim of Norcross and Representative Karen Lupton of Chamblee. Welcome to Lawmakers Huddle.

 

Karen Lupton: Thank you so much for having us. Donna.

 

Marvin Lim: Always very happy to talk to you.

 

Donna Lowry: Well, I know grant funding is a topic you both feel passionate about. You united to host three news conferences called Grant Cuts Hurt! So, let's start with the background. Representative Lupton, can you offer an overall view of the part grant funding plays in the lives of Georgians? Explain that whole grant ecosystem.

 

Karen Lupton: I don't know if I can explain the whole grant system, but I think Georgians would be very surprised to learn just how many areas are reached by federal funds. The press conferences that Representative Lim and I put on we brought in people doing all kinds of work, research, teaching, and helping victims of crime.

 

When we have money in our state coming back to us from the federal level, that is our money. This is not money that the federal government creates. This is our tax money coming back to us in the form of federal dollars..

 

Donna Lowry: Is there any way of determining how many Georgians have lost jobs because of cuts in grant funding?

 

Karen Lupton: Goodness. I can say that, the CDC cuts, which aren't necessarily grant cuts, but, those have been hundreds, if not thousands of jobs. I've got a CDC office in my district. For instance, in our press conference about education, title one funds that Georgia gets pay for over 7,200 teaching positions. Just Title I funds. So that, I mean, that's one example. I don't know if Marvin gets a lot of federal funds for his non-profits. So he may have a different set of eyes on that.

 

Donna Lowry: Representative Lim, I want to get to you. In February, you came on Lawmakers, our GPB TV show, and you expressed frustration over grant cuts that were just beginning. And one of those cuts was to a program for your constituents. Tell us a little bit about that.

 

Marvin Lim: Yes, so I have a nonprofit called Lucky Shoals Community Association. We receive a variety of federal grants all for the community I serve. I actually started this nonprofit after being in office because I was so frustrated at the pace of government and knew that nonprofits and others who receive these grants but weren't necessarily in government themselves really doing some of the most effective evidence-based impactful work. And I sought to do a version of that in my community. And one of the great, certainly the biggest grant we got was a $20 million EPA community change grant that would have allowed us to create  clean energy jobs in construction, repair commercial and residential buildings, and also preserve and create green space. It is something that unites my community, Democrats, Republicans, people of all ages. And it was a shame. Because when I did come on Lawmakers in February, the grant had been frozen, it was unfrozen, and then ultimately terminated at the beginning of May.

 

Of course, we're fighting to get that grant back, seeing what that looks like, but even if we get it back, the impact has already been felt, certainly on our staff, across this grant, nine people have had to have, their hours reduced or laid off or simply were not hired. And to get back to how we can quantify this, What we do know is that approximately $2.1 billion of federal grant funds have been cut in Georgia. That's to nonprofits, some for-profits, and also state agencies, including our public institutions of higher education. About half of that money from our tracking and research is to, in fact, state agencies. So not even to nonprofits. So you can imagine while it is hard to quantify the number of jobs unless we did a line by line project by project analysis, you can see the impact or you can guess the impact just by those amounts. That's substantial amounts that impact a variety of different areas and very clearly throughout the state of Georgia. It's certainly not just in Metro areas. We were seeing funding cuts to rural departments of education, rural nonprofits . And while it is hard to quantify, we know that it's being felt everywhere. And that was part of the point of our series of press conferences is to help people internalize that and see that it is happening right around them.

 

Donna Lowry: I think the big thing is for people to actually feel it happening to them, right? 

 

Marvin Lim: Yes, absolutely. So I'll highlight the various stories that were told at our press conferences. Certain nonprofits are not able to serve victims of domestic violence and other violence because of a grant termination. Certain institutions of higher education are not to provide behavioral health services to a variety of different folks throughout the state of Georgia. Certain people we've seen from our press conference educators in training, K through 12 educators, as well as educators in higher education in training not continue their training. So it's not just people already being laid off in those positions, it's cutting off the pipeline to that. So those are certainly some of the examples. And speaking of, since you mentioned education, we know that in Gwinnett County public schools, which is a part of the district that, or my district is in that school district is having a 25% cut in Title I funds and about 75% cut in Title III funds. Title I are for underserved communities in poverty. Title III are for English language learning. So that grant has been cut. On the other hand, part of the reason we were also doing this press conference is to say, hey, state government, local governments, private foundations, et cetera, let's band together and start to at least plan for this. Because part of what makes this also difficult is it is not an organized fashion cutting. It is slashing and burning in a way where it is predictable immediately what the effects are. So we need to step in and start filling in those gaps because while we don't yet know exactly every manifestation of this harm and hurt to people, we do know it's coming. And the few examples I provided from our press conferences are evidence of that.

 

Donna Lowry: Representative Lupton, are you hearing from these other sources -- communities, the municipalities, the foundations, are they stepping up?

 

Karen Lupton: I have not heard yet, even on the state level, anybody speaking about filling in the gaps. As Representative Lim said, part of the chaos of these cuts is not exactly knowing quite where they're landing and when, when some funds have been given, some funds are being dragged, clawed back. It's very, very... And so therefore I have not heard any plans from municipalities, from counties to say, okay, this is the investment we're going to make. Everyone seems to be in this sort of frozen, petrified, wait and see state where they're waiting for the shoe to fall. And even people in the state government, by this I mean the state legislature, do not have a clear view of this. Because when we, when I asked colleagues during our session, even earlier in the year when we knew these cuts were coming, when I said, hey, do you think we're going to have to have a special session to deal with the shortfalls in the budget? I mean, the governor's floor leader looked at me like I was crazy, said, oh, no, I don't think we are going to do that. So, I'm not sure, I am not sure yet if the people in charge of the state's budget are positive what the end result is going to be.  We can see already some of that disinvestment. The AJC had some articles about the Trump administration pulling back funds for clean energy. And that's something that has been growing in Georgia, the Q-Cells and batteries for electric cars. That's something we have actually tried to invest in in Georgia. And now these big manufacturing sites have come to Georgia, they're starting to come up out of the ground and now those funds are being pulled back from the federal government, meaning jobs, technology. Is vanishing from rural places that need it.

 

Marvin Lim: And then add to what Lupton is saying. Part of the problem is not only the chaos, but there's a great deal of fear. This unfortunately has been heavily politicized. These grant cuts are heavily politicize. Even though we're also making the case for our press conferences and the examples they're in that people doing great work for all populations are being impacted. But the way that this has been done has been politicized and the flip side of that is Candidly, there is a lot of fear. There's certainly a lot of fear from other members of government, state government, local government, particularly those that are Republican led, which is to me a shame because we still need to plan as much as we can. But I also want to make the point, there have been fear from those nonprofits and institutions of higher education, public or private. We've seen the Harvard example because there's a great fear of retaliation. So when we're talking about stepping up, we saw when we were inviting people to the press conference and said, hey, just tell your story. We just want to hear your story, we had a great list number of folks that said, I would love to do that, but we are essentially afraid that we will get more cuts or that will be targeted. And so I think beyond the chaos, there's also that fear that has inhibited both private and public entities from stepping up as we need.

 

Donna Lowry: With that fear, it sounds like it may be months, maybe into even next year, before we see some real action. Do do you think some people are just waiting to see how this all unfolds?

 

Marvin Lim: I'm certainly waiting to see how this will all fall out, as much planning as I've certainly done. Yes, I think that there is an element of that, but we still have to do our best in uncertainty.

 

 I can speak a little as a member of the Georgia House, given that we're going into January, there's an element of waiting and seeing because they feel like that we can afford to, but we can't. I think even if there were to be a special session, we need to be doing that now because it takes time to crunch these numbers and truly figure out the impact.

 

Donna Lowry: Representative Lupton?

 

Karen Lupton: Representative Lim is absolutely right about the fear that people are experiencing. So it is hard to get a handle on just how much people might be trying to make do right now and not complain so they don't lose the few dollars that they're getting left, which is very, very discouraging when we're trying to get clear view of what's going on.

 

I do think that it will take a little bit of time, but with Medicaid cuts and things like that, we hear something new almost every day. And sometimes you hear something one day and the exact opposite the next. So it's hard to pin your hopes on any one thing and plan for it.

 

I think it will a few months. Someone at, I believe the second. Press conference that representative Lim and I had asked, ‘Well, it looks like about, you know, half the people support these cuts and about half don't, you know, how do you sell that to people?’ And my response was just give it time. In time, there's gonna be a lot more unhappy people than happy because in time, they will see how this is actually landing on their doorsteps, especially in rural Georgia.

 

I don't want to emphasize it, but I can't emphasize it enough. When it comes to education cuts, when it comes to cuts in investment in clean businesses, this affects, this is going to hit rural Georgia hard. And the things, the ways that they have been trying to grow are going to be stunted. They may not feel it now, but give it even six months. Let's wait until this time. I mean, even this time next year, it's, I shudder to think what it's actually going to be like on the ground and the scramble that will be ensuing once, oh gosh, some things are really written in stone and the money tap turns off.   

 

Donna Lowry: Do you think there are enough people with jobs connected to grants that it will make a significant difference in the unemployment picture in Georgia?

 

Karen Lupton: I think that's a really good point. I know one of the education grants that got cut was $2.8 million for the training of graduate students to become school psychologists or school counselors. They were training 50 people to do that. So those 50 people might not become unemployed, but they're not going to be employed in a way that the state desperately needs them. That's a difference. I don't want to call that, that's kind of underemployment, almost. Marvin has said that with his nonprofit, he partners with people; he partners with people on the ground, and those people are losing work already because of what they.

 

And, I can't even tell you how many CDC people have taken early retirement because of the threats to their departments. I joined them for a protest in Chamblee a couple of weeks ago. And a lot of the people who were there had been pushed out. They had retired rather than wait to get fired. So that doesn't show up in unemployment numbers the same way as someone losing a job does, which is one of the reasons why it's so hard to quantify some of the impacts. We're losing expertise by people just saying, that's it, I've had it with this, I'm leaving.

 

Marvin Lim: And I will add there as well that we know from time that when there is austerity policies, cutbacks by the government, reduction of government spending, justified or unjustified, we know generally that will lead to unemployment or more unemployment, at least in the short term. That is certainly true in the public sector, as we stated earlier about half of what we're calculating from the grant cuts. To Georgia are occurring in the public sector. That is going to be very, very apparent. But also when these austerity measures happen, we do also see that in the private sector. And oftentimes we're thinking of the for-profit, right? But with these grant cuts, you might say, oh, they're going to the nonprofits. But what so many of these nonprofits were doing, mine was just one of many, were attempting to create jobs that Georgia has identified were important. Priority jobs around behavioral health, which has been a priority for the Georgia General Assembly and Governor Kemp. Priority of jobs around clean energy. Again, priorities for both the General Assembly and Governor Kemp. These are industries into which we've leaned in because there's been a critical mass of both Republicans and Democrats and people that believe that paints, provides a great economic future for rural and urban and everything in between parts of Georgia. When the grants are cut to those creating the conditions for those jobs actually to come, then we will absolutely see unemployment rise in the long-term, even in not just the public sector but the private sector. That's certainly my prediction. Of course, there are other parts of the economy. These grant cuts are so large that they will absolutely have an impact on unemployment.

 

Karen Lupton: Mm-hmm. I agree.

 

Donna Lowry: Do you feel like you are sounding an alarm and no one's listening?

 

Karen Lupton: As Democrats, we're kind of used to that. Sorry, Marvin.

 

Marvin Lim: I go back to this. I started my nonprofit because, again, I was frustrated by the pace of government. I found nonprofits, which are private entities, granted private entities that don't make that much, but are very nimble and mission-based.

 

They are doing work that the government can't and shouldn't be doing. And because nonprofits are so nimble and government isn't, it is not a surprise, I suppose I can say that when we are trying to sound the alarm, people are waiting to see.

 

 Again, we understand that the full picture isn't there but it also takes us to plan and be intentional about this to understand what the full impact of that will be. So that has been very, very frustrating for sure, that in fact, we feel like we have been sounding the alarm, and at least privately, many people individually will tell us that this is coming down the pike. But again, because of the size of these grants, it's not up to me or Representative Lupton to figure out the one solution or do the one calculation, right? It really will take a good deal of us, certainly in government, coming together and figuring out, hey, how do we get these grants back? Or if we're not going to get them back, because we're being realistic as well, what are we going to do to fill that gap

 

Karen Lupton: It's so difficult. People will feel the pain, and it has been somewhat frustrating. The people that we have invited to stand with us at these press conferences are already feeling the pinch and shuffling to do the best they can. But like I said, when... When those factories don't come, when buildings sit unfinished, when the service that you need for your child in your public school is no longer there, then people will wake up and say, oh my gosh, wait a minute, what? It's not until things become very, very real to individuals that things really start to hit home. We're just trying to warn people. We're trying to, you know, get a life raft going out here and saying, hey, hey, let's all start pulling in the same direction so that when the storm comes, we can be a little safer and suffer a little bit less harm.

 

Donna Lowry: As we wrap up, I want to give you each a chance to give some final thoughts. Representative Lim, let's start with you.

 

Marvin Lim: The time is now. The alarm bells have been rung. Let's look at this now. And I don't just say that in an ideal way. I say that, in the sense of, this is when we start to plan a piece of the state level for the next amended fiscal year 25 budget and the fiscal year 26 budget. We can do this. Maybe that's naive, but I truly believe we can do that. To the extent that people are still waiting to see, and to the extent they are driven by this idea that cuts are good, I say to them, I don't disagree with you. We've said over and over for the past several months, and even before that, that I think we can all agree, and most of us can agree, regardless of our politics, that government can absolutely be more efficient. Again, that's why I started a nonprofit, to be more efficient for my community. The government can be more efficient.

 

There is a difference between careful planning, considered planning, and slashing and burning. Slashing and running of grants, many of which have nothing to do with DI or the environment or all those things. As much as I support them, if you look at the grants cut, you will have a quizzical expression on your face for many of them. And at the same time, there is not, again, a plan for bringing these savings back to Georgians, to the Georgia state government, or the Georgia individual taxpayers or businesses. So, yes, I agree.

 

I think most of us can agree that government can be more efficient. In order for efficiency to happen, we can't just slash and burn. We have to take reality as is and carefully plan. So the alarm bells have been rung. Let's start now.

 

Donna Lowry: Representative Lupton?

 

Karen Lupton: It would be lovely to see some of the Republican leadership in the state actually engage with some of these issues, actually give us some sense that they see what's coming and that they are preparing. Instead, we've got a lot of blithe responses about right-sizing governments and almost complete denial that this is going to be an issue, which is surprising to me because we see our state budget.

 

We're very aware of what comes from federal funds and what doesn't. And when we think of everything, because when we think of everything that could be cut, there are going to be holes in our state budget. There's no way around it. And, no one in leadership has given any indication that they are planning, that they have some foresight on this, even though things might not all be set in stone. They're saying, ‘Okay, we understand there's going to be some issues.’ Here are some preliminary steps that we're thinking about taking. Instead, it's just kind of this wall of denial of no, no, we're not going to need a special session. It's go ing to be fine. I'm very anxious when the legislature has to meet again in January if we don't get a special session to fix the holes in our government. I'm anxious about what the state budget is going to look like. And I hope that we can all work together to have the state support our own citizens. In a way that's proper and good. As Representative Lim said, this slash and burn is not orderly. It's not helpful, and the chaos will come. We're kind of in this almost calm before the storm. Again, just trying to ready ourselves for what may happen. We're going to need some really strong leadership to get us through the budget shortfalls that are going to  come.

 

Donna Lowry: The heat of the summer, it sounds like might be continuing into January.

 

Karen Lupton: Oh, it's going to be warm.

 

Marvin Lim: Well, absolutely, Donna, because my EPA grant would have allowed for cooling centers in my district. So that is not forthcoming. That's literally. And figuratively, the heat will continue.

 

Donna Lowry: I want to thank both of you, Representative Marvin Lim and Representative Karen Lupton, for coming on Lawmakers Huddle and talking about this. 

 

Karen Lupton: Thank you so much for having us, Donna.

 

Marvin Lim: Very happy as always to be with you, Donna.

 

Donna Lowry:

For Lawmaker's Huddle, I'm Donna Lowry.